• Advertisement
Welcome! If you can see a big advert here, you're not logged in. Log in, or if you're not registered, register, and then log in, and the big ol' advert will disappear. (Subject to admin getting the settings right)

Modern Impressionism

Where the lost, lonely and mentally ill can now be found chatting about MISERABLE motor vehicles. No O/T posts.

Modern Impressionism

Postby Seth » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:13 pm

In the last week I have done something quite unusual for me in that I have driven two modern cars on two successive days enough distance to be able to compare and contrast them to each other and to my usual old rammle. Here are some thoughts that you will probably find boring.
In lieu of photos of either vehicle there's a couple of the destinations inserted at random. One is a building site in East London (with a tall pile of twisted metal that is allegedly art) and the other is a boat full of bananas.

Car one was my in-laws Vectra Estate. It’s about three or four years old and they’ve had it for most of that. It is grey. The spec seems to be of a reasonably high standard though not with built in sat-nav or anything like that. I’m not sure what size the petrol engine is but large enough to give it some performance. I drove this from our home in NW London round to the Olympic park and back, complete with three adults plus an American and a child, using dual carriageways with a maximum speed limit of 50mph so perhaps not a ‘complete’ road test.

Car two was my mum’s Yaris. This is an 02 reg which she has also had since it was about a year old. It is green. I would suggest that the spec in this is quite low - it has a tape player. The engine is pretty small, maybe 1 litre? It has no performance anyway. This car took two regular adults plus one American and one child from NW London to Portsmouth and back using various motorways and A roads.

Image

Vision out of both is somewhat restricted compared to the old cars I usually drive particularly at roundabouts and such like. Looking backwards to reverse park the Vectra was hopeless though I expect my feel for its bulk would probably improve with more experience. It also has a tow bar so I had this protuberance to consider too. Getting in to a tight-ish spot near Bromley by Bow station involved Mrs_Seth leaping out to direct me into the space. A similar manoeuvre in the Yaris would have been easier since the back window is pretty much vertical and at the back of the car.

Forward motion in both I found I would struggle with the throttle response. I think it is a feature of modern cars that the accelerators are heighly damped such that if you rev them it takes some time for the revs to drop again, as though they have a massively heavy flywheel (which may also be the case?) Anyway, I found myself pulling away in both with many more revs than I would have liked simply because the light throttle pedal meant it was difficult for me to gauge the response. Similarly, when underway changing gear was sometimes accompanied by a jolt as I’d change the gear and lift the clutch before the revs had dropped to a suitable level for the next cog.

The Vectra seems to have a lot of travel to the brake pedal before anything starts happening which is again an unusual feeling for me as I am used to a fairly hard pedal straight away. So as with accelerating, it took some concentration to try and slow down to a stop in a smooth fashion. The Yaris was not quite so havily ‘assisted’ which helped matters. The same was very much true of the steering. The Yaris actually needed a bit of effort to steer but the Vectras wheel was super-light and I had not real idea of which way the wheels were pointing.

Seating position in both was acceptable but then I did not make many adjustments in deference to the usual drivers of both so can’t fairly comment. However the centre arm rest of the Vectra was very much in the way of being able to change gear or use the handbrake and if I were seriously looking at buying a car like this, this one feature would absolutely drop the car off my list. I will adapt myself to pretty much anything but it seemed frankly ridiculous that a car should be made difficult and uncomfortable to use in deference to some perceived comfort/storage item. Every gear change required me to twist my body/shoulder/wrist in order to allow myself to grab the gearknob. 0/10.

Image

The accelerative performance of the Vectra certainly left nothing to be desired but if combined with steering inputs when entering a roundabout I really had no idea when traction might be broken as there was no feed back whatsoever. Similarly when braking. The Yaris is a slow car. Moving across a lane on the motorway to overtake something meant keeping an eye out for a decent gap rather than being able to dart out and speed up in moments. It would cruise happily at 70 but would need dropping down a cog to maintain speed on some hills. Accelerating down a slip road was quite amusing as a couple of times I tried it foot to the floor in 3rd and it would just gather revs, noise and some speed but without any sense of hitting a sweet spot in the power band. Just gradual acceleration. It probably wouldn’t stay amusing for long if I owned it.

Of the two I preferred driving the Yaris. The controls were less complicated. Its indicator stalk would move and stay in the up/down position rather than being ‘tiptronic’ as they were in the Vectra. Ditto the wiper stalk. To my mind the Vectra’s system was added complication for no benefit whatsoever. I was most annoyed by the fact that there was a just audible ‘plip’ though the speakers in the Vectra to tell you that you’d turned the wipers right off as the stalk position never moved. Electronics for the hell. Driving both was bland but there is always a sense of achievement when managing to make good progress in something slower and there was a lot more feedback and less over assistance in the Toyota. Neither was ‘fun’ though.
Not Always Auto

Rootes built Cortinas under licence and just changed the badging.
Seth
IAN DURY
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 7:37 pm

Re: Modern Impressionism

Postby I.K.Brunel » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:46 pm

Sounds a pretty fair synopsis in my experience.
User avatar
I.K.Brunel
GAFFER
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 2:43 pm

Advertisement

Re: Modern Impressionism

Postby Paul H » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:39 am

Interesting, especially as I have managed to avoid driving anything modern for about four years now. The last modern being the wife's old VW Lupo, which I found it to be a hateful thing, with its low fuel consumption being the one redeeming feature. Both clutch & accelerator were far heavier than in the Amazon, and the upright driving position was much less comfortable than more laid back one in the Volvo. It's not fair to compare the level of braking assistance, as the Amazon's servo was binned years ago (apparently that particular model of Girling has a very high failure rate), but I did eventually learn not to stand the Lupo on its front bumper each time I used the brakes :oops: :roll:

Oh, and I fully agree about the issue with over-complex controls. So much kit seems to be there mainly for bragging rights rather than for an actual need.
Paul H
IAN BEALE
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 11:30 am

Advertisement

Re: Modern Impressionism

Postby Hirst » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:45 am

Top content Seth! I agree with the general view and feel that the high waistline of most modern cars has made visibility a concern. It seems to be symptomatic of the fact that NCAP scores are based on results in a crash, rather than crash-avoidance.

Could the arm-rest in the Vectra not be moved up? I have to do this every single time I drive my dad's Laguna, no idea how he can drive it.
User avatar
Hirst
IAN McGASKILL
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 10:24 am

Advertisement

Re: Modern Impressionism

Postby Leonard Hatred » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:08 am

The newest car I've driven recently, a 2009 Mitsubishi Colt had those self-cancelling indicators, they were intuitive to use after a few days and much better than the early GM ones, but the advantage* isn't worth the learning curve and initial irritation. I suppose most cars must have them now though.

I wonder if a false feel of the road led to overconfidence, and crashing my modern 17 year old car a couple of months ago, the Xantia's light, almost feel-less steering tracks well, and hydropneumatic suspension masks most road imperfections. Probably wouldn't have crashed something with a few less layers of refinement (and less idiocy on my part, obv.)
User avatar
Leonard Hatred
IAN McSHANE
 
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 10:05 pm

Advertisement

Re: Modern Impressionism

Postby Jon » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:52 pm

The youngest car I've driven was a current 3 cylinder VW Polo, only a few weeks old at the time and with less than 2000 miles on the clock. I hired a car through Avis for a week for a little over £100 when back in the UK in February and was a little dismayed to hear I'd been upgraded FOC from the Citroen C1 expected (was hoping to compare to my AX GT for construction levels), since that particular branch didn't hold such miserly models.

First impressions were favourable in terms of speed, though it took me a while to work out the thing was turbocharged. However, any inkling that this was a real-world nippy car were thrown out the window when used beyond town speeds. Admittedly though, it did seem refined at 70 once there. On one occasion I had about 20 minutes to kill between meeting up with mates, so thought I'd take a trip down the A64 and get it to an indicated 100mph, for no other reason that I felt I could get away with it. Although it managed to attain this on the speedometer, I kept it there for all of about 2 seconds, as the handling at that speed (whatever that truly was) was appallingly unsafe, even in a straight line on a dual carriageway. I've never encountered anything like it, though must admit that I don't make a habit of speeding, except for our brief foray with a MKI MX5.

In conclusion then, am I bemoaning the fact that a modern 3 cylinder hatchback isn't quick and doesn't handle? Surely it was never designed for either of this. And I think that's my point; I've not checked how much that model would have cost but I'm assuming it'd safely be north of £12000. Admittedly, the engine sounded great when setting off, it suited my blezzing about for a week whilst returning 50mpg but I that's about all I can think about to praise it. It seems inexcusable that a car equipped with traction control should handle so violently north of 70mph (considering it's legal to do so in Germany, its home market) and generally be so boring, so what would be the point in paying so much for the privilege? It seems that I just naturally prefer old cars - they offer cheap thrills. I was discussing this exact point with a modern car owner the other day, plying the usual arguments in favour of older cars but in the end it's futile really, as neither of us were in the least bit interested in having our judgements swayed.
Jon
IAN McSHANE
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 9:24 pm

Advertisement

Re: Modern Impressionism

Postby Seth » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:53 pm

Hirst wrote:Could the arm-rest in the Vectra not be moved up? I have to do this every single time I drive my dad's Laguna, no idea how he can drive it.


It'd need to be moved down or back about a foot (or preferably removed and thrown out the window) to make it comfortable.
Not Always Auto

Rootes built Cortinas under licence and just changed the badging.
Seth
IAN DURY
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 7:37 pm

Advertisement

Re: Modern Impressionism

Postby Amazo » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:37 pm

Let me give a little of my input from the modern vehicles I've driven. I'm going to give a view that probably won't be popular round these parts, as while I love old cars, I'm no modern hater. The examples I've driven have been pretty fine examples of how they can be fun to drive, but to be honest thats probably because their respective manufacturers have a legacy of producing cars of that ilk.

The E90 BMW 320d

Image

A modern BMW; not everyone's cup of tea and a car that can be laden with electronic goodies in the right trim but thankfully this one just had the core items: very good air-con, cruise control, electric windows are the items you expect; it had no sat-nav, which meant no iDrive - no big loss considering my experiences with it. It does have ABS and traction control, which were both quite hard to wake up; BMWs are driver's cars, after all. The ABS only kicked in with a deliberate effort (I suspect the sort of effort you'd use in a emergency manoeuvre); the traction control can be switched off in it's entirety, or so it seemed, it will then only peek it's head round the door after some serious abuse, unlike for example Mercedes' system, which will run back in a panic at the first chirp of a tyre. As a long-time BMW fan and owner, it's also reassuring to know that despite some of the crimes against motoring that BMW have committed in recent years (like the 'X' range and the Bini), they still know how to tune a chassis for great handling. Steering feedback was very good, the PAS hits the perfect compromise of assistance while not masking feel too much, I could place the front perfectly and turn-in was a lot keener than I expected, but that's as a result of the M-spec suspension package being fitted, apparently. The semi-auto box is perfectly fine in full auto mode, but manual mode? Well lets just say I didn't use it that much. But the cherry on the cake is that engine; 50-60mpg all day long. And an indicated 144mph (allegedly) on the clock with more to come. A lot of old performance cars we cherish with rose tinted spectacles would struggle to keep up with this car on a twisty road, or a straight one come to that. Not bad for der repmobile. The interior is bloody great; good driving position, ergonomics, and nothing that you'd expect to be an 'issue' in day-to-day living; after a month and 1500+ miles on it, I didn't want to give it back.

The Peugeot 107

Image

A built to a cost modern shopping cart, surely this must have been a torture device to drive? Well, no, but I think that fact is partly due to it's budget nature.
The base 107 rental car I drove had no electronic frippery, other than ABS and the semi auto 'box, which as with most, is best left in auto; at least the BMW's manual mode was decent, the 107's is near-totally irrelevant. the only two electronic control boxes onboard are the ECU and ABS modules, both about the size of a fag packet each. What PSA and TMC (Toyota Motor Corporation) decided to do was get the basics right; suspension is by mac strut IFS and control arm IRS, engine is a 1.0 litre three cylinder with 68bhp. The car weighs 790kg, lees than a series 1 106 Ralleye, so it's no modern porker, either, and probably why In a lot of ways this car reminded me of a lot of the better 80's 90's hatchbacks I've driven, as it's quite chuckable as the suspension is surprisingly stiff, once you get past the initial understeer thats been dialled-in. You can get it to cock a leg up and even wag it's tail a little, but that understeer is always on the horizon. It apparantly can be dialled out with the addition of an aftermarket anti-roll bar. That little three-pot is reminiscent of half a Porsche flat-six; quite revvy and characterful, if not especially quick. It's nippy enough around town, though you need to give it some beans on the motorway. Speaking of which, high-speed stability isn't too bad, but once you're at the ton mark, it does require more concentration, though I'd never call it dangerous. I was thinking of writing a blog feature on how the Aygo/107/C1 would be a future cult car and has good tuning potential potential, and now an aftermarket is springing up to bring out make go-faster items for them. The interior does remind you that it's built to a price; painted door tops back in fashion (yay!) and spartan trim, but the ergonomics are right and that's what really counts.

Smart City Coupé

This was an '03 plate hire car so a while ago, but the new ones aren't that different. I needed it to drive up to Lancaster (a 520 mile round trip), and to be honest, it was well up to the task, with one glaring exception. We all know it's built as a city car foremost, but Mercedes-Benz did design a lot of refinement into it, considering it's size and expected lifestyle. Apparently, the driving position was based precisely on the W220 S-Class's, and it shows; the set/steering wheel/ pedal position is almost perfect for an average build person (although the pedals were slightly skewed) and it never caused me fatigue on all the mileage I did in that one day. In the couple of weeks I had it, I determined that it's perfectly suited to it's primary city role; thrummy engine good controls. good visibility. The cabin design is great, in a Fiat Multipla kind of way; no doubt some people hate it, but ergonomically everything was accounted for. The handling isn't as bad as some made it out to be at the time; I'd never call it Mini-chuckable and yet again understeer has been dialled in to stop over-excuberant fuds swapping ends, but day-to-day it was enjoyable. The only glaring flaw in it's make-up is more down to laws of physics than an inherent design flaw - stability in crosswinds. When I was on the M6 in the Peninines section, the car was hit by admittedly a very string side wind - and the car literally changed lane as it took me by surprise. i was on top of it after that, but the car was rocking, for sure. That type of weather was the exception rather than the rule, but still...
Overall though, a car with the sort of character that makes it the nearest thing to a modern-day Mini, to my eyes.

Ford Transit MKVI

An odd choice? Let me explain. the 'all moderns are shit LOLZ' brigade will-tub thump all day long how an old car is just as good day-to-day as a modern, and they'd have a bloody good case. But be honest; if you need a van day-to-day would you rather a MKI Transit, with a wheezy V4 or a torturous York, or this? Come to that I'd rather drive the MKVI than some old cars; while we love our old tat, some really are outdated as a daily proposition.
I'm confining myself to the driving characteristics here, because as far as lugging chattel from point ah to point buh, vans are much of a muchness. My regular van steed is the V185 FWD model with the "Puma"-type Duratorq turbo diesel engine also used in the 2000 Mondeo and Jaguar X-Type. It has a more than decent turn of speed, considering it has pumping equipment and a 200 gallon tank filled with various levels of water, though if it were down to me, I'd nick the VM TD lump out of our LDV Maxus, but then if it were up to me I'd get V184 (RWD) and start with that. Suspension is nothing fancy; Struts up front with a beam axle on leaf springs out rear. BUT it is a hoot to drive quickly; it belies it's size, the steering, although a bit slow-witted (duh) does convey where the front wheels are. there is understeer, though I suspect the ancient rubber is more to blame for that than the handling. Point-to point on moderately-curved county lanes I've caught out a few people who expect an ex-BT van to be a roadblock. Interior-wise and looking forward, other than the steering wheel position (not anywhere as bad as older vans, but not quite car-like) modern van dashboards are as their car counterparts. I've spent countless hours in that cab and it's as well designed and screwed together as any Ford passenger car. Contrast that with the Maxus which, great engine aside feels exactly like it has an interior designed by two Brummies on a budget of £2.37 and a steering position that will give you a permanent gallic shrug after a long run.
Last edited by Amazo on Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
Amazo
IAN McSHANE
 
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 6:34 pm

Advertisement

Re: Modern Impressionism

Postby I.K.Brunel » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:59 am

Good write-up Amazo, you've pretty much summed up everything I like about my 'modern' BMW and exactly why I own it.
Those 320's seem to have excellent economy, but I just couldn't resist popping for the extra 55bhp that the 3-litre gives. OK, so it drinks a bit more, but it thunders along in a way that a diesel car shouldn't. Love it.

The 107/Aygo/C1 review is interesting, 'Er Indoors was provided one by the insurance co after smashing up the first Galaxy... I thought it was quite a neat little package in the best tradition of small cars - light, buzzy, basic etc. I wouldn't want to do much motorway driving in one but round town or country pottering it was remarkably satisfying. Obviously the smallness is an issue, the boot is truly pathetic (a couple of bags of shopping, tops) and it is strictly 4 seats, but that's by-the-by. Needless to say 'Er Indoors hated it vehemently, which probably means it's good. Or something.
User avatar
I.K.Brunel
GAFFER
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 2:43 pm

Advertisement

Re: Modern Impressionism

Postby Paul H » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:39 pm

Hirst wrote:Top content Seth! I agree with the general view and feel that the high waistline of most modern cars has made visibility a concern. It seems to be symptomatic of the fact that NCAP scores are based on results in a crash, rather than crash-avoidance.

On this topic, aside from the thick pillars, I've found that many moderns actually have a lower waistline than my old heap. A few years back when driving a friend's Volvo 745 (yes, I know it's not modern in this context), I always felt that I was sitting in a glass box compared to the Amazon, due to the much lower waistline, which I found that quite uncomfortable. Not a fan of the deeper windscreens though - I find that being so much further away makes it harder to focus past any dirt / smears / rain drops etc on the screen. Those same sweeping A pillars make for atrocious visibility....

Amazo wrote:Let me give a little of my input from the modern vehicles I've driven. I'm going to give a view that probably won't be popular round these parts, as while I love old cars, I'm no modern hater. The examples I've driven have been pretty fine examples of how they can be fun to drive, but to be honest thats probably because their respective manufacturers have a legacy of producing cars of that ilk.

I don't subscribe to the modern cars are crap theory, just that unfortunately most of the ones I've had access to have been mind numbingly dull, or have fallen far short of the hype / reputation. I guess I'm also just far too used to the feel of a much older car, whether it's the higher noise levels, or the feel of the controls. If I owned something like that 3 series, it would almost certainly quickly result in the loss of my driving license as I'd want to use the performance. In contrast, much of the older stuff can be driven to their limits without attracting too much unwelcome attention, due to those limits arriving at much lower speeds, whether due to performance, handling or grip. This is one of the reasons that I can't wait to get my Sprite back on the road - all of 1 litre and no grip but razor sharp steering, rifle-bolt gearchange and rwd :twisted:

Amazo wrote:An odd choice? Let me explain. the 'all moderns are shit LOLZ' brigade will-tub thump all day long how an old car is just as good day-to-day as a modern, and they'd have a bloody good case. But be honest; if you need a van day-to-day would you rather a MKI Transit, with a wheezy V4 or a torturous York, or this? Come to that I'd rather drive the MKVI than some old cars; while we love our old tat, some really are outdated as a daily proposition.

Whilst technology, performance and refinement have moved on significantly, one thing I can tell you is that no modern estate car gets close to matching an Amazon estate for load lugging ability. The drop down rear tailgate with hinging numberplate makes it extremely versatile (shorter than Volvo V50 but with a larger boot than a Volvo V70), as it can lug around surprisingly large / long loads legally. A friend who is a journo for a modern car mag (& also only interested in modern stuff - to him, old stuff can be nice, just not really his thing) was really impressed when he saw that feature. If a decent quality modern estate was available with this set-up, I'd certainly consider getting one. However, I'm under no illusions as to it's failings compared to an equivalent modern car, just that for my needs those failings don't outweigh what I like about it. I also quite like being able to spot it from the other side of a packed car park :oops:

I.K.Brunel wrote:The 107/Aygo/C1 review is interesting, 'Er Indoors was provided one by the insurance co after smashing up the first Galaxy... I thought it was quite a neat little package in the best tradition of small cars - light, buzzy, basic etc. I wouldn't want to do much motorway driving in one but round town or country pottering it was remarkably satisfying. Obviously the smallness is an issue, the boot is truly pathetic (a couple of bags of shopping, tops) and it is strictly 4 seats, but that's by-the-by. Needless to say 'Er Indoors hated it vehemently, which probably means it's good. Or something.

Always liked the look of these - a wonderful design honesty, & I can well believe that they are fun to drive. Another that appeals is the new generation (s?) of Fiat Panda.
Paul H
IAN BEALE
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 11:30 am

Advertisement

Next

Return to Bitter Men

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests

cron